What is your opinion on death?

Discussion in 'Train of Thought' started by Rainbow Deluxe, Mar 6, 2009.

  1. Rainbow Deluxe Duchess of All Things Pretty and Music

    Does it scare you? Are you afraid to die? Are you one of those who welcomes death with open arms? Or do you just not care and know that it happens to everyone?

    I'm personally afraid of dying. I've always been afraid of that of which we don't know, and death is number one. I wrote an entire entry about my feelings towards death in my blog, so if you want to read it, just go here: Color Me Graffiti by http://salcha4u.com.

    So, what's your opinion on death?
  2. Archangel Sabre Well-Known Member

    I suppose I'm kind of afraid of death. We all have a pretty strong evolutionary incentive to desire survival.

    At the same time, though, on a conscious level I'm not necessarily afraid of what will happen to me after I die. Consciousness is a gift granted to us by the brain. The brain dies, our consciousness and soul dies with it. There's no afterlife.
  3. Tentei No Mai Bitch Pudding!

    Well, let's see...Death doesn't bother me to the point that I'm paralyzed in fear, because it's only a natural occurrence. I think raising pets when I was little made me accept death (but not to easily give into it) and made it easier for me to face my mortality if only a little bit. I mean, of course we die...no normal (I have to say that since I do believe in the supernatural o-o) living thing is capable of immortality, so sooner or later it will cease to physically function. I think that sometimes people forget that end up doing reckless things just to defy death...only to end up being killed in some freak (or not so freak-like) accident...like, playing chicken with the Grim Reaper. Oh, but anyway!

    My main concern is what will happen after death since I can't (and probably will never) accept that death itself is just a brick wall with the words "Game Over" written all over it >_>. I sort of believe that when we kick the bucket we'd have to go through some sort of process as though we are getting a driver's license. That process will determine if reincarnation is possible for us (I'm sure either we get to choose what form to be reincarnated under if we have enough Karma Points -KP-) or if we have to like, just go to a final resting place or something.

    I'm still working out my theory, really!
  4. Nazo Moderator

    Ah, but see, you yourself pointed out once before that scientist still don't completely understand the brain and how it really works. I think consciousness is an essence hidden deep, of which cannot be explained. I say this because when we are sleeping, or knocked our, or even in a coma, we are unconscious, but not dead. When we are but an infant, of which we don't remember, we were not "conscious", but we were alive. Perhaps consciousness goes deeper than simply being "awake."

    Now, my opinion on death; I fear it, but not to a standstill point. I know it's going to happen one day, I just don't want it to happen, because... even if there is a God, if there is afterlife or even reincarnation; I wouldn't want to lose what I've gained so much in this life.
  5. Mass Assassin The lonesome thing

    yay death...
  6. Archangel Sabre Well-Known Member

    True, true. But surely it has to arise from something, and I don't see any reason to think that something is a mystic or mysterious force. It's just the brain doing its magic. Consciousness is a very complex, advanced state which takes an incredible amount of precise order to sustain. Our brains are able to do this surprisingly well during normal operation, but the instant even a tiny anomaly enters it all goes to shit. It shows just how fragile consciousness really is, and I think that once the brain dies consciousness has absolutely no alternative through which to run.

    So, um ... have anything else to add to that? >_>
  7. PKT Forever /a/lone

    I kind of embrace death in some people's eyes too much since I fear it. I do think there are many things that people shouldn't care about since it's going to happen anyways. I don't like these constraints at all. Frankly I wish the world was one were anyone could do anything. Some people say that in hell your soul is punished for all eternity but what is that for someone who wants to be punished or someone who values nothing.
  8. Nazo Moderator


    Only way to know is die. Then the rest of us won't know. >_>

    Somethings will always be mystery. I think it's pointless to keep searching for the answers for what is after death. You can't know.
  9. Archangel Sabre Well-Known Member

    Except I'm not really searching. Saying that you can't know what happens after death seems kind of silly to me. It's only true in the sense that you can't absolutely know anything.

    To me, saying "You can't know what's after death, since you've never died" is as silly as saying "You can't know the Earth is round, since you've never been in orbit"

    Here's an example of what I'm talking about:
    http://www.wireforums.com/forums/280638-post5.html

    Just replace 'God' in that post with death and you have my thoughts.

    Consciousness comes from the brain.
    The brain dies, consciousness dies with it.
    The end.

    Based on the facts available, that's the only reasonable conclusion one can reach. It's about as mysterious for me as what's for dinner.
  10. Nazo Moderator

    There's a difference between knowing what happens after death and knowing if the Earth is round. There's proof of one. It's a proven scientific fact. There are no facts on after-death. Only opinions and conceptions of those who've come close to death claiming they've seen a "bright light."

    Also:

    The phrase, "no proof he doesn't exist" argument holds much water, saying it doesn't is just being, yeah, your normal atheist. Standing to with his opinion of God's nonexistence, however, saying that phrase has no backup is like saying yours doesn't. The ole "No proof he does exist." They're both the same, and they're both bulletproof. You can't put down either saying. You may think you can, but you cannot disprove, or prove, God's existence in terms of physical proof.

    Yup. The proof seems to always lie within the religious ones. In fact, trying to ask my Aunt Ronda how she can believe in God, and she will tell you this. "I know he exist, I can feel him. I've seen absolute miracles. When I was young, I was messing with a knife and I cut myself pretty bad. My mom took my hand and prayed on it with her hand over the wound. When she took her hand away, the cut was gone; there was no blood--no pain." I wish I could tell her I don't believe that shit. She's one of the coolest people in the world, but holy fuck that's a crock of bullshit. I have never once seen a true "miracle". I have never once prayed, and got help from that prayer. Never. If I had to say any pray I've ever made has come true, that's keeping my family safe from harm, but that can always be that my family is the safe type. When I was a child, I believed in God... until the very day I was in ... I guess it was bible school or something, or it was communion or something to do with religion and God. lol. They brought the class into the church, I was young back then of course, and they told us to close our eyes, pray hard and call Jesus' name and you will see him in your heart. I did just so... I seen nothing but the darkness under my eyelids. And yet... everyone in my class, the other kids--same age as myself, said they had all seen him... So what does this tell me...?

    The reason why proof is always on the religious side, is all because religion, in my full and most honest opinion and research through actual SIGHT of my own, it is nothing but mere brainwash. Fed to us as a child and stuck with us into our adulthood where we actually believe everything they tell us of God, and forget that when we were in that church, and they "seen" Jesus they didn't. Just like someone who lies a lot will actually come to believe his own lie as truth and deny anything else in serious manner; my brother is like this.

    I suppose I was lucky enough to get spared from this said brainwash. I may have said yes in class when they asked me that, but that was out of fear that I would be thrown out the class and possibly and outcast to my family. BUT, my family now knows that my belief in God died long ago, and they do not mind much. But they do not know this story. For I do not fear I'd be an outcast no longer, I only fear that they may look at me as the Devil's child for not 'seeing Jesus in my heart."

    God is the ONLY free pass in life when it comes to belief and disbelief.

    I don't know about that one. People are different, and some may truly "not know." It is possible to doubt and believe at the same time. Depends on the situation at hand.
  11. Archangel Sabre Well-Known Member

    Inferences are made based on available data all the time. For example, we knew the Earth was round based on evidence long before we sent probes into orbit. How? Because we saw the evidence available and based on that, concluded that the Earth was round. Simple.

    Likewise, I'm making an inference about death. Here is my reasoning:

    Consciousness = Life.
    Consciousness = Product of the brain.
    Therefore, Life = Product of the brain.
    Death = Brain function ceasing.
    Therefore, Death = Consciousness ceasing.
    Therefore, Death = Life ceasing.
    Therefore, Afterlife = Nonexistent.

    Now, instead of pulling the "you can't know because you haven't died" card, find a fault in the logic above which doesn't involve making an assumption for which there is no evidence. Mysterious, unknowable, untestable forces don't apply, since they're, you know, inherently unknowable and untestable, and not even provable in theory.

    But don't misunderstand me. I'm not saying that I'm absolutely certain. I'm saying that there's no reason to assume I'm wrong until you can give me proper evidence of an alternative. So give it to me. Show me one instance where consciousness has been shown to exist outside the brain.

    Until you can do that all you have is baseless, meaningless speculation.

    You seriously believe that?

    Okay, listen, if you want to believe that assumptions without evidence somehow hold validity, fine. Free country, your choice.

    But that isn't science, it has nothing to do with reality and is, for all intents and purposes, completely irrelevant.

    "No proof he doesn't exist/no proof it isn't true" is nothing but a cop-out; it's a blatant argument from ignorance. Rather than arguing around what we DON'T know, let's stick to what we DO know, like what I listed above.

    What we do know = reality.
    What we don't know = fantasy.

    Whether you like it or not, that's how science works. That's how the world as we know it works. Something is false until proven true, God doesn't exist until you prove he does.

    Here's a good example of why I think the "can't prove it doesn't exist/isn't true" argument is total bullshit:
    Russell's teapot - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    After reading that, I want you to say "Well, we can't be certain whether or not Russel's teapot exists because you can't prove it exists and I can't prove it doesn't."

    It's a total bullshit argument. And I sure as hell am not going to assume that it holds validity even for an instant, even if I can't prove it doesn't exist. And I think the exact same thing about God and death.

    If you want to fantasize about what we don't know, talk to someone else. I'm only interested in practical reality. "Can't prove it doesn't exist/isn't true" is anything but practical. It's irrelevant for all intents and purposes.
  12. Nazo Moderator

    First off, fuck you for making me edit this post because of your god damn tag. >_>



    Actually, if science can't prove something scientist usually put the nebulous tag on it. They just mark it as a cloudy subject.

    If you want to get scientific, scientist don't really know what to think on conciousness, saying it's "the word is to nebulous in meaning to be useful."

    Consciousness, doesn't necessarily mean "life". As I stated before, sleeping, knocked out, in a coma, these are all states of being UNconscious, and yet, we are still very much alive.

    Death doesn't ALWAYS mean the brain dies, however, there are states of which we call brain dead which can occur when the brain dies, but the body is still alive. Yet another reasoning why consciousness and the mind conflict one another. Vice versa; the body can die/heart stop beating, but a brain can still live. For a minimum amount of time. Look it up because you know I'm lazy to "cite source."


    You do the same, because I just took out your consciousness = life.

    Mysterious can apply anywhere that is of truly unknown essence. Such as afterlife.

    Easy.

    Plants. Plants do not have "brains" yet they are alive, it has also been proven that plants also feel pain. If something can feel, they are conscious. And according to your logic, if it has conscious it's alive.

    Just did.

    Oooooh, see, I misunderstood you here. I totally thought you were trying to say "Prove he exist" is valid, but "Prove he doesn't exist: isn't. Holy fuck I got lost on that one lol. Yeah it's a stupid argument, apologies for that. xD
  13. Archangel Sabre Well-Known Member

    Okay, then tell me: what meaning would there be in an afterlife if you aren't conscious to experience it?

    When your body is completely and utterly dead, your brain is going to die with it. If you're able to be revived, you aren't really dead. Period.

    The point is, there's no reason to believe that our consciousness can exist outside the brain at all. And even if that consciousness COULD, there's no known physical means by which it could transfer to any 'afterlife.'

    If you want to call it unknown, sure. But so long as it's an unknown it's nothing but a fantasy. Until you can give more than "it's mysterious," your idea is irrelevant even if you're correct.

    Dude, what the hell are you talking about? Scientists have NOT proven that plants can feel pain. And even if they could, saying "if something can feel, it must be conscious" seems like an incredible leap of logic.
  14. Nazo Moderator



    That's what I'm trying to say, perhaps consciousness is something deeper. Either way, your definition of the word consciousness is far off, as all consciousness explains is self-awareness.


    "Your brain is going to die with it."
    I said that.

    Or so we think.

    Irrelevant and correct don't belong in the same sentence. And I'll say it again; There is a fine line between mystery and fantasy. Two separate definitions.

    Ahahaha...

    You obviously don't watch the discovery channel enough to realize that yes, they have.

    And even if they hadn't proven it, my point still remains. I showed you where consciousness is outside the bounds of the brain.

    "Consciousness = Life"
    "Consciousness = Product of the brain"
    Therefore Life = Product of the brain."

    Plants are well alive, and have no brain.
  15. Archangel Sabre Well-Known Member

    Fine then, feel free to believe that. Until you have evidence, the idea is about as meaningful as the Flying Spaghetti Monster, but feel free to believe it.

    Free country and all.

    This = bullshit. If you have an alternate idea, show evidence for it. If you have no evidence, I'm not interested in it.

    Like I said, not exactly rocket science.

    See, this is why it's so difficult to have a proper debate with you. In not having any idea what you're talking about, you pull baseless statements out of your ass and then mention something like this when called out on it.

    I mean, the discovery channel, seriously? That's where your statement comes from?

    Listen, at best it's been proven that plants exhibit certain reactions in response to being attacked or damaged. To suppose that this therefore means they feel pain in the same sense as humans is utterly absurd, completely baseless and has absolutely no backing whatsoever from the scientific community. None. It's about as meaningful to pain as, say, if you were to kick your VCR, have it stop working and insist that your VCR can therefore experience pain. It's a response, nothing more.

    If you want to deny this based on some vague recollection of a discovery channel show you once saw, that's fine. It's no more meaningful than the rest of your weak argument.

    Okay, let me phrase this another way.

    How could OUR consciousness, the consciousness based on the impulses exclusively within our brains, continue to survive after brain death?

    I'm not talking about plants, I'm not talking about animals, I'm talking about US. And when I say "US" I'm not even talking about the human race on the whole, I'm talking about the individual that exists exclusively within the confines of one brain. How could the content kept on that ONE brain survive brain death, transfer over to another world and then become conscious again completely intact without invoking a mysterious, unknowable force?
  16. Nazo Moderator



    One question: Why would I show evidence when you haven't? The only thing you've done is spew out countless statement involving basic science with no ends of physical proof. Why? Because you can't, and neither can I, because simply put; it's unknowable what is fact of which what life is exactly and how/if afterlife could exist.



    You sir, are an idiot. Dunno if you've noticed but... The discovery channel is actual science. And no, plants do not feel pain in the same way a human does, it's different in a few ways. And trying to compare a VCR to an actual LIVING thing, is bar far the worst comparison you could put up to try and knock down my statement.



    >_> Because consciousness is only a sense of self awareness, thus it is not the gift of life. And if it is, if you have evidence that conscious is the spirit, the soul, the very core of life, please show me what scientific page you read this on, because I already read the Wikipedia page and all it explains is scientist don't know what exactly it is besides being self aware.

    Let me ask you a question before I answer; Have you ever seen something, anything that you just couldn't explain?

    Simply put, I don't know. But then again, I'm having this debate with someone who doesn't believe in the paranormal or doesn't believe in things that science can't explain, and therefore this entire debate is hopeless and pointless to the fact that you cannot accept anything that doesn't have scientific proof. Yes, I too base much of life's happenings on science, but I'm open minded enough--no, I'm smart enough to know that science ISN'T everything and somethings in life will never be explained, proven, or disproven.
  17. Archangel Sabre Well-Known Member

    Spirit? Soul? Core of life?

    And you've the audacity to talk about physical proof?

    Maybe I'm stepping out of line here, but I'm pretty sure that the brain exists.

    Going a few steps further, I'm pretty sure the brain is responsible for everything I think, feel, remember and experience.

    Going a few steps further still, I'm pretty sure that once my brain completely dies, there will no longer be a tool through which I can think, feel, remember and experience things.

    And therefore, once I die, I'm pretty sure that I will no longer think, feel, remember and experience things. And once that happens, there will be nothing.

    Am I absolutely, 100% certain of this? No. But until I see evidence that suggests otherwise I'm reasonably, 99%-ish certain of it.

    And I do actually think that consciousness itself can exist outside the brain, but not for us. Not for me, not for you, not for any other individual human. Because the brain is what makes us who we are.

    If a plant is conscious, great. But it has no relevance to whether we're going to experience an afterlife or not. Because for what you are, and what I am, there is no consciousness outside the brain. For other creatures, perhaps, but those creatures would have their own consciousness which is completely unrelated to us. It doesn't matter to a single, individual human.

    This doesn't mean it's impossible for it to exist in principal. Perhaps eventually we'll find a technology that can upload the data in our brains onto a computer, or something along those lines. But that would be decidedly unnatural intervention and it doesn't apply to an afterlife that we'd be taken to through nature.

    As of now, I'm about 99% certain that once my brain goes, everything that makes me 'me' is going to go with it. All my memories, all my feelings, doubts, even my very existence. All gone, to be replaced by nothing.

    Because as of now I am convinced that everything we are, everything we see and everything we experience is confined to the three pound pile of chemical mush sitting inside our heads. Because that is what all the scientific literature available to this point suggests.

    The spirit, soul and 'core of life' are nothing but human constructs, created by people who want to think that the brain/life is 'magical' in some way. But our existence does not require a spirit or soul, it requires only a conduit through which to function. And that conduit in our case is the brain. It's not magical, it's not whimsical, it's not god, it's not supernatural, it's not a soul or the core of life. It is a tool. An unimaginably complex tool, but a tool nonetheless. Nothing more.

    Do you understand my point now? Or at the very least, can you understand why I'm reasonably certain of it?

    And btw, I don't mean any of the above as an argument, I'm just explaining my reasoning. Because if we keep arguing neither of us is going to understand the other. At the very least if you can understand where I'm coming from I'll be satisfied.

    Yes. In those instances I try my best to come up with a rational explanation and if I can't I just forget about it. Any explanation that isn't rational is infinitely more likely to be wrong than right. Because when you work outside the rational, you're working with imagination, not reality. And once you get on that road pretty much anything you want to believe can be considered true.

    I understand that, I acknowledge that, and I used to be exactly like that myself. But now I'm of the opinion that anything that cannot be proven or disproven is irrelevant to us anyhow. And when you think about it, most of the stuff that has you saying "well you can't prove it or disprove it" could pretty easily be explained away by an overactive imagination.

    For example, there's no real reason to believe that a soul exists. But if you work with the presumption that a soul should exist, it doesn't take much of a leap to say that it's impossible to know whether or not a soul does exist. But if you can't properly measure it, and can't properly examine it, what difference does it make anyway?

    Even if it does exist, it's irrelevant to reality. And the only reason we sit with this presumption that it might exist is because it sounds reasonable to us. For example, what if I said there's a magic invisible leprechaun that follows you around everywhere you go, watches everywhere you go, sees everything you do, knows everything about you? Would you honestly give the idea credence? I would hope not, because it's an inherently silly, stupid notion.

    And yet, it's literally exactly the same concept as god, only construed in a way that sounds silly. And the idea has exactly as much concrete proof as any god, the soul, and everything we're discussing here. You can come up with any one of an infinite number of possible scenarios, slap the "can't prove it doesn't exist, I can't prove it does" card on there and instantly shed uncertainty on anything you want.

    And a long time ago I decided that was a really stupid way to look at the world. From where I stand, there are two ways to look at the world:

    Absolute uncertainty or reasonable certainty.

    You look at it with absolute uncertainty, filled with unknowns and things that might be true but can't be proven, ideas which seem reasonable but you can never be certain whether they're real or not. In this world things like god, ghosts, mediums, demons, angels, spirits, channeling, miracles, horoscopes, astrology, psychics, ouija boards and all other supernatural things might be true, but they also might not be. Can't know either way.

    And from an absolute standpoint, you're right. I can't know, you can't know, none of us can know. I admit that.

    But I don't look at the world in absolutes. I look at the world with reasonable certainty. Which is to say, I don't presume anything is true until I'm given evidence beyond a reasonable doubt that it might be. And, if evidence later comes along that says I was wrong before, I alter my opinion. Because even if some unknowable, untestable force does exist, if it can't be proven it might as well be irrelevant. And I think it's much more reasonable to just go ahead and say it doesn't exist instead of holding onto this idea that it might exist, it might not exist or it might be something else or it might not be. Because there are an infinite number of things that it could be, and I'd rather hold on to what I think it is.

    If you want to prove it wrong, go ahead. But as it stands I have no reason to believe that anything but the brain is responsible for our consciousness and existence, because there's no other part of our bodies that can be shown to be responsible for our thoughts, actions and desires. And until you can show me something else that might be responsible for it, I'm not interested. And I've no reason to believe there's an afterlife.


    Btw, Discovery Channel is infotainment at best. If you want real science you need to read a scientific journal, like Nature. (which you can visit online for free at nature.com)
  18. PKT Forever /a/lone

    I think that when we die we all become a sort of part of something greater whether that greatness is spiritual or simply a return to our materials I have no clue.
  19. Kyuuketsuki C-c-c-c-combo breaker!

    Well, I'm not going to argue any of you all's beliefs. I find that all pointless in the end.

    I'm afraid to die, yes. That's because I know that when I die, I will be leaving those I love behind. And, I'll also miss those memories of mine. Death, to me, is the end of all life. I'm still unsure about my religious beliefs, still trying to figure myself out. If there's a heaven, then I don't wish to go there. Same with a hell. I'd love to live forever, but that's not going to happen any time soon. I'm too young to die. :p
  20. PKT Forever /a/lone

    I know that even though I suffer I'm not yet ready to die since I still have things to do.

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